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CONVERSAZIONE CON WALTER PEDULLA

Lei ha attraversato con l’esperienza critica un 50ennio della storia letteraria del 900’. Una memoria lunga, fatta di persone, scrittori scomparsi, rivalutati, poi riscomparsi, personaggi e mode letterarie. Cosa rimarrà del secolo letterario che si è appena concluso?

Del 900’ restano, anche se sembra banale dirlo, libri: libri di narrativa, poesia, saggistica, memorie e di critica, ovviamente. Premetto che io ho amato molto il 900’, l’ho vissuto da dentro, stando nelle sue pieghe, e non me né sento né sazio, né tanto meno ho il vezzo snobistico di metterlo in secondo ordine rispetto ad altri secoli. Cosa ha fatto il 900’ in letteratura? Quella che la cultura gli ha dato delega di fare, né più né meno, e a dir il vero, personalmente mi sembra tanto. Anzi direi che lo scopo è stato raggiunto. Cosa c’è di nuovo? Beh, come in tutti i secoli vi sono repliche e differenze. La materia è per eccellenza la stessa, l’uomo ed il suo modo di vivere, lottare, combattere, fare guerre o l’amore, tutte quelle che si possono definire le persistenze del vivere. Di sospetto invece, vi è che il secolo ha dovuto usare spesso il prefisso neo, come per dire “stiamo parlando e facendo qualcosa di nuovo”, e quindi farlo consapevolmente. Ma come si fa a dire cosa viene prima? Cosa è veramente nuovo? Si rischia di cadere nel dilemma di cosa viene prima l’uovo o la gallina, prima vengono le novità a livello dei contenuti e poi quelle della forma, o viceversa. In realtà, come dicevamo bisogno sempre ragionare nell’ordine della persistenza e delle differenze, su cosa muta e cosa persiste. Ad esempio il secondo Novecento presenta la Guerra e la sua miseria e poi successivamente la sua ricostruzione, e questo è un fatto di persistenza, ma allo stesso tempo presenta due fatti nuovi: da un lato la possibilità per l’umanità di autodistruggersi, cioè le armi nucleari, dall’altra il lager. Non che civiltà che si siano distrutte o razzismo non esistevano prima, ma il nucleare ed i lager si sono avuti solo nel 900’. Ora come io racconto la persistenza ed al tempo stesso il nuovo, e posso chiamare questo mix di novità e persistenza: il reale? Posso percepire pure la questione meridionale come il reale ma è una persistenza o una novità? Se il realismo è un’epica della realtà, dovremmo chiederci cos’è reale e cosa invece non è reale, ma come facciamo a distinguerlo con chiarezza. Il mio reale potrebbe essere diverso da quello di un altro.

È di questi giorni, l’uscita di un suo libro di memorie e di ricordi legati alla figura di Debenedetti (Il novecento segreto di Giacomo Debenedetti, Rizzoli Bur, pag.212, €17,00).
Un debito umano e professionale, lo spessore di una valenza critica e storica. Perché di questo testo?

Mi pongo sempre la domanda su cosa sia necessario scrivere. Cosa sia necessario scrivere per me; e cosa è necessario che io scriva per la società, la cultura, la comunità di studiosi o di studenti, con e per “il fuori di me”. Se voglio degli interlocutori, non devo solo interrogare me stesso, ma anche loro. Io sono un critico (non ho mai scritto né un racconto né una poesia) ed ovviamente il mio problema è la critica, come si fa critica e soprattutto se e come forzare un genere (la critica ha la stessa gabbia di genere che ha ad esempio il giallo, o la fantascienza, etc.) come interrogare, far deviare quella forma, per fare critica in modo sempre nuovo, comunicativo e che crei un dialogo con i lettori. Fuggo dal burocratichese o dalla pesantezza noiosa che a volte conserva in sé molta critica accademica.
In questo libro ho ricostruito un personaggio certamente complesso da un punto di vista parziale, dal mio punto di vita, ho ricreato in un certo senso “il mio Debenedetti”, ma ho anche ricostruito i due decenni secondo me decisivi per la letteratura italiana, gli anni 50’ e 60’ e i suoi dibattiti, intuizioni ed idee, inoltre ho cercato di rendere anche l’uomo, il critico, il lettore. De Benedetti affrontava la letteratura con straordinaria lucidità, per cui anche completamente immerso in quel clima ed in quell’ambiente letterario riusciva a sintetizzarne, e a vederne linee e tendenze. Sono anni decisivi per la critica in Italia. Sono il decennio allo stesso tempo del neorealismo, e dello sperimentalismo.

L’ironia e le armi del comico (per citare il titolo anche di un suo testo) possono essere la via di fuga, l’escamotage per uscire dalla stagione dell’impegno? Se nulla è da prendersi sul serio, sia l’uomo che la sua storia, se tutto è fumo (altra citazione di un suo testo), non è finito qualsiasi sistema di valore e si rischia una deriva relativista? Più debole del pensiero debole della filosofia, abbiamo una letteratura fragile?

Nel comico c’è il pericolo di non prendersi sul serio; ma è vero anche che la condizione psicologica del comico è la condizione di chi non ha più paura, di chi desacralizza le istituzioni, gli uomini e le forme tragiche della vita. Il comico certamente rassicura, ma allo stesso tempo ridicolizza la paura, ci dice, come faceva Pallazzeschi, che ci si può divertire anche ai funerali. L’elemento comico o grottesco scopre “quello che c’è sotto”, svela la maschera: irridendola, denigrandola, oppure negandola come reale nella sua verità immutabile. Ancora non abbiamo capito se i comici sono i più disperati o i più superficiali. La condizione del comico oscilla dall’un all’altro senso, conservando quest’ambiguità di fondo. Certo quando Holderin dice. “Tu ridi, e non fai niente di meglio che ridere”, è la critica più feroce a chi dissacra e non costruisce, però ci sono momenti in cui bisogna essere dalla parte della comicità, che non significa negare la tragedia, ma far riflettere l’uomo su quali siano in realtà le tragedie e quali no. Molto spesso le tragedie ed i malesseri sono solo i modi per nascondere delle elegie lagnose, delle lamentazioni sterili e auto-referenziali, e poi le culture producono sempre delle tragedie. Che tragedie sono? Il Novecento ha insistito molto sul comico, Kafka che è oggi letto con l’aria del massimo teorizzatore del tragico e del nulla, della fatica di esistere, leggeva i suoi racconti agli amici ed insieme ne ridevano.

Lei si è sempre definito un critico impegnato (come il suo maestro, Debenedetti, che fu come dice nel suo libro, marxista e comunista). Cosa significa oggi essere un critico impegnato, non è una definizione che rischia di essere anacronistica?

Essere impegnati significa aver scoperto un tipo di realtà, e sentirla addosso. Farsi carico di quel tipo di realtà e di quel contesto. L’impegno non è andare a raccontare i pescatori poveri della Sicilia come fa Verga, ma essere, sentirti tu stesso un pescatore. Nella stagione dell’impegno noi sentivamo quella condizione come nostra, eravamo coinvolti integralmente. In tutto quello che raccontavamo o facevamo o scrivevamo si portava la nostra testimonianza, i nostri furori, la nostra rabbia, la nostra delusione, la nostra voglia di cambiare le cose. Poi dopo, abbiamo scoperto, e lo dice bene Calvino, che pensavamo di descrivere una realtà oggettiva, dicevamo questa è la nostra Italia ed in realtà parlavamo di Noi, questi siamo noi, e quindi non vi era oggettività ma solo soggettivismo.

Abbiamo parlato dei testi, ma ora vorrei riflettere anche sul pubblico. Com’è cambiato il soggetto che legge narrativa negli ultimi decenni, e se pensa stia emergendo una nuova soggettività?

Oggi abbiamo posto al plurale molte cose, e certamente anche l’idea ed il concetto di pubblico è plurale, si parla di pubblic-i. Io considero in generale, il fatto che delle persone si rivolgono ai libri e alla letteratura per avere delle tensioni, delle risposte, delle domande, delle storie e altro, oggettivamente un dato positivo ed indiscutibile. Ciò che crea una tensione, mette in moto delle energie, è ancora la scrittura, perché la scrittura ha una propria specificità nel veicolare alcuni contenuti, che non possono essere trasmessi da altri media o da altri linguaggi (banalmente come potremmo “fare” La critica della ragion pura di Kant in TV o con il linguaggio di altri media?).

Lei ha scritto “se si vede come un’epoca scrive, si vede cosa intende fare”. Come scriviamo oggi, e cosa le fa pensare il nostro scrivere della società contemporanea?

Dovremmo riprendere il discorso sull’agire (o scegliere di agire) sulle persistenze o sulle differenze, anche oggi la letteratura presenta novità e persistenze. C’è certamente un contesto sociale, economico e politico diverso, ma diverse sono anche le forme. È come un processo di sistole e di diastole, nel primo dopoguerra come dicevamo, si era concentrati sulla Realtà, sistole, poi sulle Forme (neoavanguardia, nuovi tentativi di romanzo, etc.) quindi come se alla sistole avesse seguito una diastole, poi andando verso i nostri giorni i battiti si sono fatti più frenetici. Questo per dire, che sono operazioni del tutto naturali, non c’è nessuna contraddizione tra il giovane Calvino realista e l’ultimo Calvino sperimentalista, sono due momenti di un processo fisiologico.

Come scrivono le nuove generazione, e chi sono gli autori secondo Lei più interessanti?

La letteratura delle nuove generazioni si presenta a volte, come incurante della tradizione. Giovani autori dichiarano di non aver letto né questo né quell’altro importante autore della nostra tradizione, ma di scrivere a partire dà sé o da modelli di altre letterature. In realtà quello che può sembrare un oltraggio, non lo è. Forse è una mistificazione. Che vi siano certe letture dietro ai testi degli autori della nuova generazione, si può intravederlo. Ritengo però questo atteggiamento di rifiuto per la tradizione anche positivo, segno di una vivacità, di una voglia di cambiamento e di rinnovamento. Infondo le nuove generazione di scrittori si sono sempre sviluppate in opposizione alla tradizione dei padri. Leggo con interesse Pincio, Mari (forse a mio avviso lo scrittore più significativo) Di Stefano, Alajmo e anche qualche giovane come Raimo. Nella prima fase questa generazione nuova non sa dove sta andando e non ha un progetto. Ma non è meglio non avere un progetto? Appena si ha un progetto chiaro e si tende a seguirlo pedissequamente, si crea un’ideologia, una cancrena, una situazione statica. Idealizzare il proprio progetto di scrittura o di letteratura è un chiudersi al dialogo, al confronto, all’apertura comunicativa. Ecco, se c’è una cosa che non bisogna fare è installarsi in una chiusura.

Qualche autore degli anni 80’?

Beh, io scommisi già in quegli anni, e scrissi di e su Celati, Cordelli ed il secondo Tabucchi, che non è quello degli esordi e nemmeno quello fortemente impegnato politicamente di oggi. Penso di non aver sbagliato.

Ha sempre invece avuto qualche riserva su Alessandro Baricco, perchè?

Baricco lavora sulle emozioni e sull’impatto, oltre che su uno stile affascinante, ecco perché i suoi libri hanno sempre un discreto successo di pubblico. Il primo livello di lettura è sempre la piacevolezza, il sentire emozioni, ma poi il secondo, ti fa sentire in un certo senso un imbroglio. Cosa resta di questa lettura?
Io amo i libri con il prigioniero all’interno. Beh, ora mi spiego. Io amo quei libri dove, in un altro piano della casa-romanzo, o casa-racconto, c’è un’altra persona rinchiusa e nascosta. Così mentre al primo piano si sente la voce dell’autore che ci racconta la storia, crea le scene e le dipana, segue l’andamento dei fatti, dei personaggi, io posso sentire la voce di quel prigioniero. Infatti, quando leggo un libro, la storia è solo il primo livello della mia lettura. Mi piace poi vedere e andare oltre. Leggere il libro per la seconda volta e concentrarmi sulla voce più nascosta ed autentica, la voce “altra”, che prima intuivo e su cui ora mi concentro. Se dentro il libro c’è “il prigioniero”, allora si può leggerlo molte altre volte, se non c’è, una sola lettura può anche bastare, e puoi anche dopo buttar via il libro.

Per fare critica è necessaria lucidità e razionalità, confrontare, raccogliere, creare un ordine, o muoversi alla sua ricerca. Tra l’ignoranza del giornalismo divulgativo e il burocratichese dell’Accademia, quale spazio per un critico della letteratura contemporanea?

Il primo problema di un libro è sul come lo leggi, il passo che dai alla tua lettura. C’è un vero e proprio ritmo di frequenza con cui avvicinarsi ad un libro, se tu sbagli il passo, se non entri nel tono giusto, rischi di non entrare in un libro, anche se è un libro importante ed interessante. Ricordo che De Benedetti quando lesse Tozzi negli anni 20’ non trovò nella sua poetica nulla di significativamente interessante, poi negli anni 60’ si entusiasmò e scopri nella Siena di Tozzi un intero mondo, e sdoganò l’accusa di provincialismo mosso all’autore toscano, che prima di autori aveva avuto intuizioni molto moderne.

Una conversazione ha sempre un carattere divulgativo, e quindi spesso, sintetico rispetto a fenomeni che meriterebbero ben altre trattazioni, (per questo rimandiamo il lettore ai suoi libri). Si dice che uno scrittore è essenzialmente uno stile, Lei è un critico letterario, ma con uno stile personalissimo e originale, con un proprio stile riconoscibile. Molti ritengono forse anche per questo troppo soggettivo e personale il suo modo di lavorare criticamente su degli autori.

Non sono tra quelli che ritengono di fare scienza della letteratura, io lavoro e faccio critica secondo le mie possibilità e secondo i miei modi. Non ho la presunzione quando lavoro su di un autore, di dire ecco: “Questo è Landolfi!” “Questo è l’opera definitiva su Landolfi!” “Questo è tutto Gadda”, ma cerco di dire, “questo è uno dei Gadda possibili”, “questa è la mia lettura di Gadda”, e apro il testo e lo faccio parlare anche della società in cui mi trovo a scrivere, e delle sue criticità.
Il rischio della letteratura è il manierismo, il manierismo è il vizio della letteratura che insegue qualcosa che non ha riscontro nella realtà. Il manierismo, intendiamoci, è anch’esso un modo di vedere, realizzare, fare letteratura, ma quando il manierismo diviene narcisismo, allora ecco che la letteratura diviene un cortocircuito, persegue la sua morte, affascinata dalla sua immagine. Ma anche qui, potremmo forse negare che il vero mito della nostra attuale società non sia il narcisismo? Ecco ritorniamo all’ambiguità e all’ambivalenza del discorso letterario. Personalmente preferisco la periferia dei frammenti, al centro delle Verità. Io lavoro e scrivo procedendo per e con frammenti, con pezzi di pensiero, anzi lavoro la pagina che sto scrivendo anche 20, 30 volte per farla diventare magra, per dire l’essenziale in modo diretto e semplice. Spesso con costruzioni grammaticali quanto più semplici possibili. Ho sempre cercato non solo di fare critica ma di farla in un modo sempre diverso.

Neoavanguardia e pubblico della letteratura, allontanamento, implementazione, svecchiamento, astrusità, iper-intelletualismo…

Io giudico molto positivamente l’esperienza della neoavanguardia, del gruppo 63’, dello sperimentalismo. Questi autori sapevano di lavorare sulla finzione e ammettevano candidamente che non esisteva la Realtà Oggettiva, e quindi nessuna Verità preconfezionata, e chi diceva di detenere Valori e Verità assolute era solo un mistificatore che andava smascherato. Le ricerche formali anche quando lavorano programmaticamente fuori dalla logica dei significati, comunque depositano i contenuti dei loro discorsi nella lingua. Della neoavanguardia ed il suo ludico giocare con il linguaggio, la sua rottura di forme, del suo desacralizzare, resta un senso di libertà, un senso di “deformarsi integrativo” come diceva Gadda. La cultura prima deforma e rompe gli ostacoli, desacralizza, e poi crea una nuova forma, e questa forma viene integrata nel contesto culturale, e quindi una volta integrata è pronta per essere di nuovo deformata. A questo processo ha partecipato l’Avanguardia degli anni Sessanta, svecchiando la nostra cultura, o almeno cercando di dar vivacità ad una tradizione quella borghese che pensava di detenere il Centro, di essere il Centro. Ecco se vi è una cosa che io amo, è il periferico. Mi sento dalla parte del comico più che del tragico, della periferia piuttosto che del centro, della sperimentazione delle forme piuttosto che del ripetersi sempre degli stessi stilemi. Una volta che uno scrittore ha creato e trovato una forma per raccontare e dire una cosa, si rende anche conto che quella forma è mortale, nel senso che ha un in sé “qualcosa di morto”.

Qualcuno dice, però, che la neoavanguardia con il suo intellettualismo, il suo astruso sperimentalismo, abbia creato un distacco tra la letteratura ed il pubblico, o almeno “il grande pubblico”, consegnandolo o lasciandolo ovviamente in balia di altri media (penso alla Tv), capaci di rispondere più facilmente al suo rinnovato bisogno di consumo e intrattenimento, la letteratura ha perso una grande opportunità?

Dipende dall’obiettivo dell’autore. Molti scrittori, o molto più propriamente gli Scrittori, non hanno come primo obiettivo il pubblico ma bensì la Verità, l’Arte, lo Scrittura, il Mistero del vivere, etc. come si può confrontarsi con qualcosa che è quasi un’operazione mistico-magica e avere allo stesso tempo l’ossessione: “piacerà al pubblico!”? Il pubblico è un aspetto secondario. Certo un’altra soluzione è quella di creare storie coinvolgenti e poi inserire tra le righe elementi di riflessione, straniamento, disincanto, soluzione formali nuove, etc. Tra il ripetersi dei soliti modelli da una parte, e dare al pubblico la possibilità di fare operazioni culturali, far vedere non solo la luce ma anche l’ombra di quello che significa essere uomo, dall’altra, il compito della letteratura sia il secondo. La letteratura deve farci vedere che siamo come Orfeo, incapaci di non girare la testa all’indietro verso il buio e la donna amata, anche sapendo che così la perderemo per sempre.

Nel suo “Il ritorno dell’uomo di fumo”, lei scrive, “Arriva il momento che anche la Tv più eccitante annoia, se non fa vedere qualcosa di nuovo. Non facciamoci illusioni. È inutile che finga il guardone che legge: nessuno può più fare a meno della televisione. Preghi che essa lasci un po’ di tempo per la lettura”. Scrive di Tv, paradossalmente usando la scrittura di Pallazeschi, in questo capitolo dal titolo LO STATO-SPETTACOLO ovvero L’economia del visionario. Poi c’è la sua lunga esperienza nel Cda (Consiglio di Amministrazione) Rai e la breve parentesi da Presidente. Come vede la Tv, oggi?

La Tv di oggi, non mi piace. Quando ero in Rai ho cercato non di fare cultura in televisione ma di fare cultura televisiva, che è un’altra cosa. Qualsiasi cosa si voglia fare in Tv deve tener presente che non si può non usare il linguaggio televisivo, e che ci sono cose che trasportate senza il giusto adattamento per la TV da altri linguaggi sia la letteratura o il teatro o certo cinema: non funzionano. Non solo pretendere come ho fatto, che vi sia comunque presente in Tv la notizia culturale e non solo quella sportiva, ma non cercare a tutti i costi i dati di ascolto, di non far fare la Tv agli inserzionisti direttamente come avviene oggi, abbassandone sempre più il livello inseguendo il livello culturale dell’ultimo. Vi è il canone e possiamo permetterci anche qualche ascoltatore di meno della concorrenza commerciale, dicevo in Rai e venivo accusato di favorire così la concorrenza. Berlusconi è portatore di una sua “cultura”, di un suo modo di vedere la vita e di suoi valori. Berlusconi ha un’ideologia dell’imprenditorialità legata al successo economico e alla praticità della vita. Berlusconi non fa altro che promuovere e fare l’unica cultura che conosce nel bene o male: la sua

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